Response to Amazing Grace and Morality

You said "Perhaps you are familiar with the recent movie Amazing Grace." Nope, never saw it. I think I remember hearing you describe it, though. From your descriptions, I think what Wilberforce did to get slavery abolished in England is admirable. And moral.

I don't know, since I'm not familiar with the history, but I would guess that the British slave owners of the day were not aware of the deplorable conditions in which the slaves were shipped from their home locations to Britain. I'm just guessing, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that descriptions of those deplorable conditions helped sway people into outlawing slavery. It was a degradation of the human condition, and once people understood that, the continuing existence of slavery over a fairly short period of time became intolerable. It certainly had nothing to do with any biblical standard.

I would judge any society that enslaves human beings as being an immoral society. I include in that pre-Wilberforce English society, The deep south prior to the civil war, the north before it was outlawed in the north, The african cultures that sold and still sell other africans into slavery, The Romans that took slaves, and yes even the Hebrews that took slaves. And yes, I'd even judge the bible as being immoral for not just justifying, but even going so far as codifying slavery. Deuteronomy 21:10 sure doesn't give the captive woman any choice on whether or not she wants to be the 'wife' of her captor, now does it? Sure sounds like sexual slavery to me, and it is immoral.

But people in biblical times didn't deem it as such. It fit within that societies mores to take a beautiful captive woman as your sexual slave, as long as you treated her decently. If an American soldier in Iraq quoted that scripture, and used it as a pretext to make a beautiful Iraqi woman as his wife whether or not she wanted it, the entire world would be justified in calling it immoral. So, ya, I judge the Brits that took slaves as immoral, just as I judge the bible as promoting immorality for the same reason.

Societies evolve and change. Individuals in those societies make moral decision based on what they are taught in their society. Wilberforce made a different moral decision than much of the rest of his society did; sometimes our moral choices are opposite of the society in which we live. But they are always in the context of our society. And we judge others as good or bad based on that context. I judge the bible as immoral based on my societal context; you judge it as moral. We judge it differently based on not only our societal context but on our personal moral decisions based on seperate life experiences.

Hitler deemed it right to exterminate the Jews. It isn't somehow right by any stretch of the imagination just because some Nazi's considered it right in their frame of reference. And in the same way, the bible's version of god is immoral in commanding the Jews to exterminate races of people in the land of Canaan just so that the Israelites could possess the land. I don't deny that such a moral judgement on my part is the result of my cultural perspective; I have never claimed anything else. But I couldn't possibly see it otherwise. Doesn't matter to me that the bible justifies the extermination and calls it good and puts flowery language on it. It is still wrong.

So I see no justification other than prooftexting holy books for saying there is or ever has been any absolute moral standard. There are morals because they work. Some moral systems work better then others. Those that don't work fall by the wayside and don't get used over time. societal evolution, if you will.

You said "My questions are in reference to a non-theistic system of belief, so I hope you are not taking them personally.
Anyway, that is all for now. I look forward to hearing from you."

I don't separate my beliefs from me easily. My beliefs are a part of me; how am I not supposed to take it personally? I suspect that it makes you at least a little bit irritated or uncomfortable to see me call your bible and your god immoral, especially since you know that I truly believe it. Unfortunately, that is the risk both of us take in having these discussions. I'm thick skinned enough that I can take it up to a point. I'm far less bothered by the questions coming from the perspective of informal debate than I would be if I thought you were just doing it just to try to get my goat.

If I've gone too far, I apologize. I genuinely don't know how to express my feelings/rational/logic on this issue without saying some of the things that I've said, however.

Peace, Friend.